House of Eratosthenes

You missed some Friday night fun if you didn’t go here. It all started when blogger friend Mark’s feet were held to the fire…in a loving, caring way, I’m quite sure…for his failure to return the toilet seat to its proper, feminine-friendly, downward position.

We all know what the smart hubby does. He complies, quietly. Well Mark’s smart — so maybe he did that. But he couldn’t resist writing up a treatise wondering what honest men have been wondering since the toilet seat was invented, or at least, since suffrage. Here, I’ll paraphrase:

Toilet Bowl Duh, hey…if you can do everything I can do, and I’m to think you can under pain of social ostracism and a sumptuous buffet of other penalties…how come you’re so weak and helpless you need me to properly position your commode for you?

Each gender was aptly represented in the ensuing discussion — which, as you can imagine, made things more fun. As you might further imagine, I have discerned that the clean break in the consensus, adhered very cleanly to the boundary that lies between said genders.

And then, as prognosticated, Blogfather Gerard made an entrance and it definitely got more fun. With a title of “If Men Can Put It Up, Bitches Can Put It Down,” he’s pulling no punches.

Perhaps I’m in the minority here once again. Perhaps not. But to me, it isn’t half as objectionable laboring under the burden of putting the seat down — Mom raised me to do that, and these days, I don’t even have to — as it is to wrestle with The Grand, Onerous Dichotomy.

I think the fellas know what I mean.

Girls strong. Girls powerful. Girls smart. Girls capable. Girls can do everything we can do, and don’t you dare think otherwise.

But they’re queasy, writhing, squirming and helpless if we don’t get things ready for them for their most intimate personal tasks, because they are completely incapable of doing it themselves. Even the ultra-feminized variety who makes twice as much loot as you do, and manages to work it into every single conversation…bites your arm off at the shoulder if you so much as dare to open a door for her…cannot handle a curved piece of plastic tilted in the wrong direction at two in the morning.

Both of these, the strength and the weakness, we gentlemen are required to accept without so much as a hint of skepticism or reservation.

We can do this. But not without an instinctive eyeball-roll. And I hate to break it to you gals, but we’re all doing the eyeball-roll. Even the sickeningly post-feminist she-male men who speak in the high voice and use the word “totally” a lot. They think it’s silly, too, they just don’t have the balls to say it out loud.

Cross-posted at Right Wing News and Washington Rebel.

…cannot handle a curved piece of plastic tilted in the wrong direction at two in the morning.

I’ve heard this before. I’ve also heard their answer, “We come running in there into a dark bathroom, half asleep….and promptly fall into the bowl itself when we sit down because someone left the seat up.” Silly? Yes. But that’s what the women like to tell us.

Ah, just put the thing down, my fellow gentlemen…and close the lid too, while you’re at it. This not only looks better, it prevents objects from falling in to the bowl, small children from drowning, or pets from drinking out of it, as the case in your household may be.

This has got to be one of the silliest running battles between men and women, or more precisely, between wives and husbands. I don’t know if it’s to be taken as humor, or if people really do get worked up over it the way they do that other silliness in the bathroom – which way to install the roll of toilet paper. Maybe this is one of those things that everyone has an opinion on simply because everyone must sit down on a toilet at least once each day.

I’m a guy…and I have to side with the women. Just close the lid, flush, and wash your hands. Simple enough?

(We’ll probably still be having this conversation when the sun goes nova, just like I can’t get the Left to stop going around pronouncing our presidential candidates “unqualified,”…even though it just ran the most neophyte candidate in US history.)

You want to know what’s really strange? While my lady never has to remind me to put the seat down…I do find myself putting the LID down after *she* has used the commode.
- cylarz | 06/25/2011 @ 09:47
I bet I can guess the academic-feminist response to all this: “Leaving the seat up is yet another manifestation of patriarchal privilege, in which males reinforce their positions of domestic authority by imposing yet another task on their hapless wives. And since postindustrial economies rely on the unpaid domestic labor of women held captive by the gender system, leaving the toilet seat up is yet another way of enforcing women’s subordination. One of the worst ways, in fact, since it’s tied to the second most intimate bodily function women perform.”

I’d be willing to bet Amanda Marcotte actually did say something similar to this at one point in her life. Got her an A in Wymyn’s Studies 101, too. Hell, I wouldn’t be surprised if there isn’t an academic paper or two arguing this exact thing.

Which is why I never cohabitate with anyone with a liberal arts degree. Never date anyone who has a theory about it — this is the Severian Motto for Domestic Bliss.
- Severian | 06/25/2011 @ 10:07
Oh cylarz, not the “It’s silly on both sides so let’s arbitrarily pick one side to acquiesce because it’s silly” argument? And so early in the weekend, too.

Did you see what that one commenter had to say at RWN? “Never met a demander that wasn’t trying to exert control.”

I suspect this has something to do with the way the brains are wired. Pretend for a moment guys had to sit and women were the ones who could stand. Just go with it, for a second, alright?

Guy wanders into the bathroom in the middle of the night, doesn’t check the toilet seat. Goes ker-sploosh. Screams, maybe. Next night he must answer the call again. He goes in the bathroom…what’s he gonna do? Hello? Just sit down? Don’t think so.

He adapts to the situation, and in twenty-four hours the little drama has played itself out and become a figment of history. We don’t argue about it forever.

With the gals, though, we have to have it back-and-forth throughout the decades and generations. The brains are working differently, it’s the only explanation.
- mkfreeberg | 06/25/2011 @ 10:15
I bet I can guess the academic-feminist response…

You win the innernets today, Severian.

My toilet seat is always up except for when it’s down. This is one of the very few bennies of a solitary life, which also include ten hours of uninterrupted football on EVERY Saturday during the Fall, no dumb-ass or inane remarks during hockey games, and the complete absence of Honey-Do lists. I feel for the trials and tribulations all y’all suffer and I remember the hassle, but not fondly.
- bpenni | 06/25/2011 @ 12:29
Okay, okay, Morgan. Ya got me. You’re right. Again. To be honest I never really thought of it that way. I mean, the control issue, and the double standard (if the shoe were on the other foot, it wouldn’t be an issue), and so on.

(Oh, and I rarely read RWN anymore, because I dislike D-Vega so intensely – gah, I can’t STAND that guy – as well as all the mentally-ill trolls over there.)

In my defense, I can only say that this isn’t the hill I choose to die on. I’m prepared to let the gals have their way on this one, this time. If we’re going to squ

I think part of my reasoning, is that I myself must sit down at least once a day. I mean, even men’s public bathrooms do have toilets and not urinals only. (Have you ever wished you had a urinal in your own private bathroom at home? I think that’d be hella cool. That, and my own soda fountain, like you see in a modern fast food chain restaurant.)

Like you, I was raised in a household where this was never an issue. My father never had to be reminded to put the seat down, and I don’t recall my mother ever telling him (or me) to do so. It was just a given that the toilet lid was closed at all times, except when actually in use. The woman I’m with has commented more than once how pleased she is that she never has to remind me to put the seat down.
- cylarz | 06/25/2011 @ 13:46
Should read, “If we’re going to have squabbles between the genders, this isn’t a battle I choose to fight.”
- cylarz | 06/25/2011 @ 13:47
In regard to Severian’s comment:

“Leaving the seat up is yet another manifestation of patriarchal privilege, in which males reinforce their positions of domestic authority by imposing yet another task on their hapless wives.”

Or Martin Hale’s over at RWN (yeah, now I had to go look, thanks Morgan):

“The height of this silliness for me came when I had a woman launch into a diatribe about how men standing when they urinate was a means of exerting gender dominance over women.”

I honestly cannot get my head around this thinking. Being that I think more-or-less logically, I simply cannot manage to draw any connection between standing up to piss, and women being oppressed or something. I just don’t see what one has to do with the other. I understand why women would get *annoyed* at finding a wet seat or always having to put it down, but I’ve heard of some who are irritated by the mere male act of standing up to pee, even if he follows all the protocols. (How the heck do these women know how their guys use the john, anyway? Are they standing there watching to make sure their men sit down like ladies do?)

I remember somewhere reading a comment from some “whipped” guy who meekly complied with this nonsense and sat down EVERY time, even when he only went #1. I forget what the issue was – the gal he was with bought into all this hyperfeminist crap, but was also rich or had gotten him a cushy job at her father’s company, or was really really really hot, or some other shallow reason.
- cylarz | 06/25/2011 @ 13:57
cylarz, cylarz, cylarz!!! Don’t give up so easily! Your original comment is absolutely correct. Let’s assume that Morgan is on to something when he says that it is a matter of different wiring, and that women just like to have the toilet seat down and just aren’t adaptable to this like men are — and that this has been true for time immemorial. Why wouldn’t we men, then, out of respect and love for the wishes of our lady companions, not just do this kindness for them? It costs us absolutely nothing, especially if we men are wired not to really care one way or another about it, and can adapt easily to either/or. What do we gain by being jerks about it? As I said elsewhere, I know my wife and daughters appreciate the toilet seat being down. I love my wife and daughters. So I put the seat down when I’m done. And it’s such an insignificant, painless thing to me to do that I can’t even call it a concession. In fact, it’s one of the few kindnesses that we men can do for women that doesn’t require any sacrifice at all.

Morgan – as to the idea behind the “I’ve never met a demander that wasn’t trying to exert control” comment, I have just two things to say. First, in my household at least, it’s not about a demand being made or about exerting control, but more about a simple request for consideration and courtesy. And I would bet in 99% of all such situations, it’s also about a request and not about a demand. Second, that claim also applies to flip side of the argument, which is telling our women to “man up” about the toilet seat and to “demand” that they put the seat down for themselves. The man who sees such issues as a series of demands and power struggles for control just doesn’t understand the nature of a respectful, reciprocal, and complementary relationship where we do kindnesses for the people we love and live with just because that’s what you do in healthy relationships.
- huckupchuck | 06/25/2011 @ 21:57
Well huck, I do agree with the point. If my betrothed and I did share a commode — in fact, unless I’m mistaken, the house we’re renting for the July 4th holiday will indeed place upon us the burdens associated with such an arrangement — I will, indeed, put the seat down. Partly because I was raised that way, and partly because I happen to like her. Yes, you’re right, it is an insignificant burden.

My comment has to do with the female who would make an issue out of it with the man who happens to not be so inclined.

I simply do not understand this drive to flop back and expect a toilet seat to be down. If I were a woman, I’d be hard-pressed to do it, no matter what time of the day or night. Seriously, what’s going on in your head? “I’d better find a toilet seat down ready to catch my ass as I fling it down…if it isn’t there, boy oh boy I’m gonna be really mad…” I just wouldn’t be able to do this.
- mkfreeberg | 06/25/2011 @ 22:22
Well, Morgan, if a man is “not so inclined” and the woman constantly bitches about it, then I’d say the toilet seat situation is just a symptom of a much more profound problem with that relationship. Toilet seat etiquette is the least of their worries.

Also, not understanding “this drive to flop back and expect the toilet seat to be down” is really irrelevant to our own behavior choices, isn’t it? Because as irrational and as incomprehensible as we men might think it to be, it seems to be a universal preference with women. So as men, baffled though we may be about it, we can either acknowledge this reality, accept that because we aren’t women we can’t fully understand it, and try to accommodate it out of love and kindness anyway; or we can take our male bafflement, belittle women for not thinking more like men about it, and be petulant jerks about it. I think the former is the more chivalrous, not to mention the infinitely easier, path.
- huckupchuck | 06/25/2011 @ 23:31
Well, Morgan, if a man is “not so inclined” and the woman constantly bitches about it, then I’d say the toilet seat situation is just a symptom of a much more profound problem with that relationship. Toilet seat etiquette is the least of their worries.

Agreed.

Also, not understanding “this drive to flop back and expect the toilet seat to be down” is really irrelevant to our own behavior choices, isn’t it?

As far as I’m concerned, the drive is more central to the discussion than the behavior choices. I haven’t got that much longer to wait before the next person complains about a lack of women in this-or-that profession, or this-or-that field of study, right? It seems there’s an item of mystery here, where some diligent research would prove fruitful.

Women don’t turn on ovens without opening the door to make sure there isn’t anything in it, right? So why the flopping-back? Does the sleepy-excuse really cut it? Seems to me one would be more motivated, when half-awake, to avoid that unpleasant butt bath.

…Because as irrational and as incomprehensible as we men might think it to be, it seems to be a universal preference with women. So as men, baffled though we may be about it…etc. etc. etc.

With all respect, huck. This seems to be a well-rehearsed monologue to be aimed at men who leave the seat up. It doesn’t apply to me.
- mkfreeberg | 06/26/2011 @ 08:07
Seems to me one would be more motivated, when half-awake, to avoid that unpleasant butt bath.

Agreed. And yet … even women who do avoid the butt bath by knowing their men and checking before sitting still don’t like it. I think it’s just peevishness at their men not doing them this small kindness.

With all respect, huck. This seems to be a well-rehearsed monologue to be aimed at men who leave the seat up. It doesn’t apply to me.

Well, I don’t know about a well-rehearsed monologue, seeing that it just popped out as I was writing it, but you are right that it is a soapbox comment and you’re doubly right that it doesn’t apply to you. I was just “having a say” … Peace.
- huckupchuck | 06/26/2011 @ 12:20
I’m with whoever made the point that this is probably the silliest, and apparently longest-running, example of the war between the sexes.

For myself, I’ve never been particularly enamored of a bathroom that looks like the one in a gas station, so I drop the lid – and I’ve been married a few times, and single for most of my life. It never looks great, and often enough looks disgusting.

The whole thing got real clear, though, when I learned that odors are in fact particulate. Think about that one for a minute. If you can smell it, you’re breathing it. After that one, closing the lid got a lot more intuitive.
- rob | 06/26/2011 @ 18:44
Bullshit, Morgan. You completely neglected my rational contributions to Mark’s conversation.

Kissing Gerard’s ass wins you no general points either.

You’re still expected to bring the beer and Cubans for our flirt fest on my big back porch.
- Daphne | 06/26/2011 @ 18:45
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- House of Eratosthenes | 06/30/2011 @ 06:45

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