House of Eratosthenes

At 60, I have no dog in this fight. I am out to pasture. But from time to time I have asked women about this double standard, in which we vest with women the right to avoid parenthood but not men.The counter-argument every time is if you play, you pay. I am amused because of its similarity to the anti-abortion argument. Should what applies to the goose apply to the gander?
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If men cannot, post-coital, rid themselves of their parental obligations, then women should not be allowed to either. Equal protection under the law means just that. The 14th Amendment may not apply to the unborn, but surely it applies to “all persons born or naturalized in the United States.” The ability to abort one’s parental responsibilities either applies to both or none.

That won’t happen, of course, when people enjoy “rights” because of class membership and not because of individual dignity. The rights are to be awarded to classes, and before that happens we have to know: Which class is it?

mkfreeberg: If men cannot, post-coital, rid themselves of their parental obligations, then women should not be allowed to either.

Men only have obligations when they make children. There’s a solution for that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condom
- Zachriel | 03/17/2014 @ 11:02
Well, no, Zachriel. If you read the article, you would have noted that even “sperm donors” have parental obligations that women do not. If you correctly use a condom (Good luck with that! http://www.wikihow.com/Use-a-Condom I love step 9! “Safe Condom Use”. It is to Laugh!), you can still be a father, if she “harvests” the condom. Even if you are not the father, you can still be the Father. “Many unwed fathers paying child support have never admitted paternity. A 1996 federal welfare law requires a woman to name a father — no questions asked — when she applies for public assistance. A court summons can be mailed to the man’s last known address. Many men don’t get the notice. The result: The paychecks of 527,224 men in California, for example, are being docked under ”default” judgments of paternity that can’t be contested after six months.”. As opposed to “mothers”, who are never responsible for children under our current legal system. If not Abortion, there is Adoption, and Foster Homes, and “Baby Drops”, and sympathy and treatment for the “Susan Smiths”……..
- Robert Mitchell Jr. | 03/17/2014 @ 13:05
Robert Mitchell Jr: If you read the article, you would have noted that even “sperm donors” have parental obligations that women do not.

Don’t donate your sperm.
- Zachriel | 03/17/2014 @ 13:30
Gee, what happened to “use a condom”? Yep, so much for “Equality”. Women can sell babies without any legal issues, and men can avoid any place women might be. Yep, looks like equality before the law to me!
- Robert Mitchell Jr. | 03/17/2014 @ 14:50
Women who don’t want children don’t really need access to abortions or birth control meds. They can simply…not have sex.

Or again, does “you play, you pay” only apply to one side of the relationship?
- Rich Fader | 03/17/2014 @ 22:41
I mean, seriously. Abstinence is free, and is nearly always more safe and effective than abortion or contraceptive meds (for those other few cases, there’s always self-defense with deadly weapons). But if you dare to notice that, you’re retrograde, slut-shaming and just generally spouting crazy talk.
- Rich Fader | 03/17/2014 @ 22:46
Rich Fader: Women who don’t want children don’t really need access to abortions or birth control meds. They can simply…not have sex.

Men and women have an individual right to control their bodies.
- Zachriel | 03/18/2014 @ 05:18
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- House of Eratosthenes | 03/18/2014 @ 05:37
Men and women have an individual right to control their bodies.

But, not an equal responsibility, we can see.
- mkfreeberg | 03/18/2014 @ 05:46
mkfreeberg: But, not an equal responsibility, we can see.

Women are just as responsible for financial support as men.
- Zachriel | 03/18/2014 @ 06:11
++whiplash!!++ We were just talking about control over their own bodies, not about financial support.

This is why people don’t normally share a single account to enter comments from multiple people (who don’t read each other’s stuff).
- mkfreeberg | 03/18/2014 @ 06:28
mkfreeberg: This is why people don’t normally share a single account to enter comments from multiple people (who don’t read each other’s stuff).

Don’t see the inconsistency. Once born, both parents have a financial obligation. They can individually use birth control to avoid this situation. But no, a man can’t force a woman to have an abortion or carry to term.
- Zachriel | 03/18/2014 @ 06:31
Cosmology
http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=3290#comic
- Zachriel | 03/18/2014 @ 06:36
Again, Zachriel, women are not responsible at all for “financial support”. Women, and only women, can hand off or end the child.
- Robert Mitchell Jr. | 03/18/2014 @ 10:54
Robert Mitchell Jr: women are not responsible at all for “financial support”. Women, and only women, can hand off or end the child.

Once the child is born, the father can claim paternal rights. Both parents are responsible for support until such time as the child is adopted.
- Zachriel | 03/18/2014 @ 11:13
Ah Zachriel, your denial is impressive. What is the masculine version of the “baby drop”?
- Robert Mitchell Jr. | 03/18/2014 @ 15:38
Robert Mitchell Jr: What is the masculine version of the “baby drop”?

It’s called “baby drop”. In most states the mother, father, or any adult who has legal custody is allowed to drop off a baby.
- Zachriel | 03/18/2014 @ 18:41
I can see y’all’s position makes sense if, and only if, “once the child is born” is the same as “before the child is born.” Or, “before the parents have sex.” Which it isn’t.

Twenty non-partisan-things, Thing #8.

Conclusion: Y’all’s position doesn’t make sense.
- mkfreeberg | 03/18/2014 @ 19:02
mkfreeberg: I can see y’all’s position makes sense if, and only if, “once the child is born” is the same as “before the child is born.” Or, “before the parents have sex.”

Before birth, both men and women have the right to control their own bodies. After birth, both have an obligation towards the child.
- Zachriel | 03/19/2014 @ 04:31
Please, Zachriel, if a woman uses a “baby drop”, there are no questions asked. That is the point of them. If a man tried to use one, there would be many, many questions asked about “legal custody”. An obvious and contemptible lie. As to the “right to control their own bodies”, that is how the baby was created. The question under discussion is why the woman, and only the woman, gets “rights” when it comes to the innocent person created by “the right to control their own bodies”. Unless your position is that women are so inferior that they cannot handle any responsibilities at all, which seems awfully Sexist…….
- Robert Mitchell Jr. | 03/19/2014 @ 17:46
Robert Mitchell Jr: if a woman uses a “baby drop”, there are no questions asked. That is the point of them. If a man tried to use one, there would be many, many questions asked about “legal custody”.

In most U.S. states, either parent may use safe haven laws.

Robert Mitchell Jr: The question under discussion is why the woman, and only the woman, gets “rights” when it comes to the innocent person created by “the right to control their own bodies”.

Before birth, the mother decides (with some limitations). Otherwise, someone could force her to carry to term or to abort.

Robert Mitchell Jr: Unless your position is that women are so inferior that they cannot handle any responsibilities at all, which seems awfully Sexist

That doesn’t follow from the position that the woman can decide.
- Zachriel | 03/19/2014 @ 19:01
Again, Zachriel, women can use them, “no questions asked”, which, again, is the point of “baby drops”. Men have no such “right”, and must, as you pointed out, prove “legal custody”.

If we are arguing Equality, which we are, then before Conception, the would be mother, and the would be father decide. That’s the Choice you should have control over. For women, and only women, to get a “do over” once that choice has been made, is to proclaim them inferior to Men, who you quite smugly state, “There’s a Solution for that”, and “Don’t donate your sperm”. Not even a mention of a possibility of a “I changed my mind!” on the men’s side. So much for equality……

By that “reasoning”, then the farther should get to decide before birth. Otherwise, someone could force him to support the mother and child for 21+ years or murder his child. (And what’s so terrible about forcing a woman to Abort? This is a trivial medical procedure of so little consequence that Aspirin is considered more dangerous in the eyes of the government, as seen by “Parental Consent” rules, right?).

Yes it does, because your position is that the Woman is not responsible for her actions at any point, while the Man is responsible the moment he touches her. In Reality, as well as our Legal system, the superior person is the one with the responsibility.
- Robert Mitchell Jr. | 03/19/2014 @ 19:26
Robert Mitchell Jr: Men have no such “right”, and must, as you pointed out, prove “legal custody”.

All but four U.S. states allow either parent to surrender his baby to a safe haven.

Robert Mitchell Jr: Yes it does, because your position is that the Woman is not responsible for her actions at any point, while the Man is responsible the moment he touches her.

That is not our position, and mothers are responsible for support, as are fathers. There is some asymmetry in the law, but most of the asymmetry is due to circumstance. Let’s return to your initial statement.

mkfreeberg: If men cannot, post-coital, rid themselves of their parental obligations, then women should not be allowed to either.

If either parent surrenders the baby to a safe haven, then once adoption takes place, neither parent has any further parental obligation. If either parent decides to keep the child, then both parents have parental obligations. As for before birth, each potential parent controls their own body (with some limitations).
- Zachriel | 03/20/2014 @ 05:27
The two sexes are not treated equally.

If one chooses which facts to ignore and which facts to present with undue weight, one can make it look like they are treated equally. Some may think that this sort of delusion and deception is a worthy art form. But the fact is that they are not treated equally, and those who make the most noise about “equality” are the least concerned about it.

- mkfreeberg | 03/20/2014 @ 19:43
mkfreeberg: The two sexes are not treated equally.

No, not socially. Women usually have to bear more responsibility for child-rearing.
- Zachriel | 03/21/2014 @ 03:44
…to which, they get to say no. Men don’t.

It’s all a matter of perspective.
- mkfreeberg | 03/21/2014 @ 04:51
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- House of Eratosthenes | 03/22/2014 @ 10:02

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