House of Eratosthenes

We just got this phrase from our realty agent, whom we like. I’m not going to allow the relationship to sour over a single casually-selected phrase; not easily, anyway.

My mother, who is the embodiment of perfection in every way and cannot be criticized — since she’s dead — had a Circle of Trust very much like Robert de Niro’s, and she spoke often of her proclivity for drumming people out of it on hearing the phrase “at this [particular] point in time.” At the time, I could see where she was going with this but I thought her reaction was a little on the extreme side. Even at the tender age of seventeen, with all I had to learn still ahead of me, I had the maturity to recognize business relationships were more complicated than this. Five little words change everything? Really?

And the girls half your age at the credit union who call you by your first name. Get with it Mom, that’s just how they do it in the 1980’s. You’re going to complain to management over that? Yes, as I embarked on the world of adulthood, I had the worldly wisdom necessary to see the world is more nuanced than that.

Well, one hitch in the giddy-up there. The years that have come & gone in the interim have taught me nothing about this, save for introducing the distinct possibility that Mom was on to something. And I think “possibility” is understating it. Phrases reveal things, and therefore they are important. From how many business disasters have I suffered, in all those years? Not too many, I suppose, given how much of a stretch of time we’re talking about; I’ve been fortunate. And how many could have been avoided if I just pulled an emergency cord when I heard a phrase? Uh…pretty much every single one, with no exceptions? Hmm. So there’s food for thought here. It could be twenty-twenty-hindsight, I guess. But do trustworthy people need catchphrases? No. They don’t. So I’ve had something of a slow paradigm shift here.

Well, I always knew there was something to this. I’ve never really trusted anyone who says “at this point in time.” But my own favorite is “together we can do this.” And I’ve also tacked on “in times like these” and “with the economy the way it is.”

But the more I turn it over in my head, it seems to me “not sure where you got your information” is a worthy entrant. Why would you say that to somebody? I suppose if you have conflicting information, and you can source it but you’re not sure the other person can, it might seem like a natural utterance. And I want to be fair here; if it’s the other person with all the skin in the game, and I’m just a researcher doing my job, I could see myself saying that.

Except I’ve been in that position. I didn’t use this phrase. I think that’s because I’m not a salesman; your ass is on the line, mine isn’t, in my world that means you get to do whatever you want. It isn’t that I don’t care. It’s an issue of deference to proper ownership.

And this says nothing, unlike the others, about a person’s character. It is an intrinsic attribute of that ages-old exercise in what is called “dickering.” Ever since the peasants sidestepped horse shit in the market square to quibble about bolts of silk, or ounces of spice. “Not sure where you got your info” has been part of it the entire time, I’m sure.

That doesn’t mean it isn’t expendable. It’s just poor form. I mean, if I know something I know it, right? No use trying to convince me I didn’t see what I saw.

How about “here’s my info.” Or, “can you forward me what you have, so I can make sure we’re talking about apples-and-apples here.” If you’re on my side, give me some damn help assembling together a complete picture. But I don’t much appreciate the kindly suggestions about what I’m supposed to be forgetting, in order to come to the conclusion you want me to come to.

So is it fair to add this to the list? I’m thinking maybe there need to be two lists. One, a list of phrases you shouldn’t want to use if we’re going to form the realtor/buyer relationship I think we should be forming here; the other, a list of phrases that immediately put you out of the circle.

With all due respect to our current President, “let me be clear” and “make no mistake” go on that second list. And I think that one about “together we can do this” is the finalist; that’s the one that compels me to slam the door harder & faster than all the rest of them. This does not make me as excited as it might make other people. Well, not in the same way, anyhow.

Let me add my $0.02 worth here, Morgan:

I’ve never really trusted anyone who says “at this point in time.”

I kind of hate that one myself, since it usually seems to appear somewhere in the rejection letter I get from a prospective employer after I’ve applied for a job. It’s HR-speak for “not now will we hire you, not ever in fact.”

But my own favorite is “together we can do this.”

That one’s fine as long as it is coming from someone I know personally, and not a government official urging us toward socialism.

And I’ve also tacked on “in times like these” and “with the economy the way it is.

With unemployment at 9% and gas at four bucks a gallon (and the price of everything else going through the roof) I’m not sure why you have a problem with those. Lots of things aren’t practical now, that might have been a couple of years ago.

But the more I turn it over in my head, it seems to me “not sure where you got your information” is a worthy entrant.

You then contradict yourself in the three or so sentences which follow.

With all due respect to our current President, “let me be clear” and “make no mistake” go on that second list.

No argument there; every time he says either one, he proceeds to be vague and unclear. And just for the record (another one right there I guess)…”with all due respect” is a polite way of saying “I don’t respect you.” The listener can be assured that whatever follows will be quite disrespectful.
- cylarz | 03/28/2011 @ 00:20
Yes, it’s totally fair because it’s a passive swipe at your bargaining adversary’s intelligence network. I’m all for a good sales job. I love to be sold when I’m already going to buy it anyway. I will reward an original and walk away from the mentally lazy ones who have catch phrases. And I will utterly despise one who tries to insult me as a form of dominating the conversation. Rookie mistake. Is that “woman” thing? Do guys take up the insult as part of the game and bring it back with good humor? Because I’m tempted,when that is brought up, to counter with, “well, I’m not sure where you got your people skills.”

And, “with all due respect” is the polite harbinger of contempt! Well-applied, however, in regard to any politician.

Plus, I want to “reach out” and slap someone for “reach out to.”
- JoanOfArgghh | 03/28/2011 @ 04:49
Yeah, the “due respect” thing is interesting. I figured out all by my lonesome, and I suspect most persons of reasonable intellect figured out the same thing — and then saw it played out before my own eyes — that there’s a world of difference determined by whether or not you leave in that word “due.”

The kinda-sorta-senior guy among us, who was kinda-sorta boss of us all but not really, shot himself in the foot with that one. Started a big ol’ hoopty-doo with it. Bosses calling bosses, smoothing over feathers. Like you say…”rookie mistake.” He didn’t even mean to offend anybody. Just made a mistake leaving that “due” in there…and the rest of us were reacting with genuine surprise, “Why didn’t he drop the due? You always drop the due.” Funny thing was, this was the guy who thought he had a monopoly on the people skills. Obama voter, yup.

“With all respect” sounds sincere and respectful, is worded that way, and comes off that way unless it’s delivered with sarcasm. You should only leave the due in when you mean to smack somebody — when you think someone’s doing something wrong and doesn’t realize it, or doesn’t care about it enough. And, in this case, I due.
- mkfreeberg | 03/28/2011 @ 06:32
“not sure where you got your information”

I’ve used it. And it’s basically one step away from saying “I think you’re wrong”. You’re basically saying that I think you’re wrong, but perhaps you have been misled. In other words, you shift at least some of the blame off of the person onto the liars and cheats who supplied them the information.

Either way, it’s a less confrontational way of saying, “you’re wrong”. But not by much.
- philmon | 03/28/2011 @ 06:39
Cy, it’s got to do with Thing I Know #328. The beef is not with the “economy the way it is” catch-phrase, it’s what comes afterward. You know the thing that comes afterward will suck and make no sense at all; or, if it does make sense, it would make sense all the time no matter what shape the economy happens to be in. (“We want to make sure we’re profitable,” “we can’t afford to hire any dead weight,” “we want to run lean and mean,” “we can’t have any expenses on our books that aren’t directly related to our business”…) That would be your Thing I Know #335 idea there.

Softening a bitter blow is one thing. I draw the line at using some bromide to make it seem as if the logical answer to an open question, is something different than what it actually is. Because some of us have brains that aren’t wired this way. I might add that, for this, we’re thankful.

Now, those other people, the Medicators, the ones who think Joe Biden won the debate against Sarah Palin. The poor wretches who somehow think the content of a thought has changed just because someone has tossed out a cliche or a punchline or flashed some pearly whites in just the right way. Most of the bitching on this blog here, at least by me, comes out to a rant against those people for the influence they have on things. Obama Himself is only just the latest big manifestation of this. Point is, influence isn’t even what these people want. Not on actual decisions anyway. You can see it when their latest purchase turns into crap and they get painted into a corner about it. They like the feeling that they’re manipulating things — emphasis on “feeling.” The actual manipulation itself involves some day of reckoning, some sense of accountability, that they’d just as soon not have.

So yes, it really gets under my skin that the cultural protocol of American business has metastasized to this point, that “with things the way they are right now” has become a cliche put into common use. Businesses exist for the purpose of showing a profit. That is their reason for being; the only one. You realize a profit by making sure your expenses are lower than your income. Does it make sense to streamline your expenses — only when the economy sucks, as opposed to all the time? No! That is not how it works.
- mkfreeberg | 03/28/2011 @ 06:51
I think Joan’s got it here, and I don’t think it’s a “woman thing,” either. I think it’s about age (sorry, cutie – I mean that as a compliment.)

All these things, and most certainly including a kid calling you by your first name, are pure and simple assuming a superior position. Before we embarked upon the Litigious Society, every cop in the world knew that calling you by your first name set up the expectation that he was the adult, and you were a kid. Any and all medical organizations do the same thing. Anybody young enough to be my grandkid who casually calls me by my first name on introduction is disrespectful, period.

And I tell ’em, too: “Excuse me, but I’d prefer ‘Mr. De Witt, if you don’t mind.”

“Not sure where you got your information” means “Well, you poor sap, I guess it’s not your fault that you’re pathetic, so in the spirit of Noblesse Oblige….”

“With all respect” shows a winning humility, whereas “With all due respect” hints at “Well, you poor sap etcetc.”

“At this particular point in time” means “I’m so shallow that I think you’re gonna find me impressive when I talk like the guys on the teevy.”

“Together we can do this,” “In times like these,” and “With the economy the way it is” collectively mean “I’m a brain-dead liberal and I’m doing you the favor of assuming that you are too.”

I’ll tell you something that you can take to the bank: if you ever withdraw completely from the television for a few years, you will find yourself astonished at the level of buzzword use you encounter on a daily basis. The percentage of Americans who consider themselves witty due to their timing in employing catchphrases from sitcoms is over whelming, and depressing. And it’s always about one-upmanship.

And yeah (sigh,) “Get offa my goddam lawn” qualifies, too.
- rob | 03/28/2011 @ 08:42
And yeah (sigh,) “Get offa my goddam lawn” qualifies, too.

(Caution: buzzwords approaching at flank speed.) BZZZT! Wrong! “Get off my goddamned lawn” is useful shorthand for bein’ Old And In The Way but often… nearly always, actually… correct. Don’t be pissin’ in my cornflakes, Rob. 😉
- bpenni | 03/28/2011 @ 10:35
(Caution: buzzwords approaching at flank speed.) BZZZT! Wrong! “Get off my goddamned lawn” is useful shorthand for bein’ Old And In The Way but often… nearly always, actually… correct. Don’t be pissin’ in my cornflakes, Rob. 😉
– bpenni | 03/28/2011 @ 10:35

Yeah, well…….we’ve had this discussion before, no? ;-}

If you’ll refer to your notes, I b’lieve you’ll see that my position on that matter is that I’ve been old, and it ain’t what it’s cracked up to be. And anyhow, what stands out at this point is that my opinions aren’t at all about being “old,” since they’re almost always the same ones that made me so unpopular when I was 20. I am a lot less shy about lettin’em be known, though.

In re that “Get off my lawn” routine bein’ about age, I was the guy downstairs screaming Shut The Fuck Up when you cranked up your brand-new Rolling Stones records, ‘member? And Eastwood’s Frank in Grand Torino was prob’ly tellin’em to get off his lawn in his 30s too, although (a) he most likely didn’t have the plethora of opportunities, and (b) I somehow misdoubt he needed the M1 to make his point.

You know. And fuck a buncha “old.”
- rob | 03/28/2011 @ 11:14
I’m rather fond of “Get offa my lawn” myself. Usually while poking fun at my own attitude. But not really apologizing for it, either 🙂

And you know, getting older might be a little like having more to drink. Doesn’t change your attitude necessarily, but does kinda change your willingness to hide it from others. As in, it lessens it.

So you’re free to launch into Get offa my lawn whenever you want to. 🙂
- philmon | 03/28/2011 @ 11:32
I never considered “with all respect” vs “with all due respect” before. I guess I always assumed that with the second version, the speaker was acknowledging that the listener is “due” a certain amount of respect – that the speaker intends to provide, with whatever critical remark is about to follow.

However, on closer examination you’re probably right…and in any case I stick by my contention that it really means “I don’t respect you.” I cannot even take credit for the thought; a poster on another blog was using it for a signature file. He probably didn’t think it up either.

Does it make sense to streamline your expenses — only when the economy sucks, as opposed to all the time? No! That is not how it works.

Of course it makes sense to do that in good times as well as in bad. My point was merely that because of fuel costs, lots of things are prohibitively expensive right now that might not have been before. I was actually looking at it from a consumer rather than business standpoint – businesses, to a point at least, have the luxury of being able to charge their customers more if their costs rise, because their competitors will be doing the same. Expenses will then once more be less than income, which means profit as you said.

Consumers, on the other hand, have to think long and hard about that vacation to Disneyland this summer because of what it’s going to cost them with gas where it is. Furthermore they don’t get to walk into their boss’ office and demand a raise simply to keep pace with the rising cost of living.

And they also are less likely to change jobs with the unemployment rate so high, because it’s so difficult to find anything else. I should know because I’m in that situation – I would prefer to change careers but I can’t right now because I haven’t been able to find another position which would still pay my bills.
- cylarz | 03/28/2011 @ 12:50
And Eastwood’s Frank in Grand Torino was prob’ly tellin’em to get off his lawn in his 30s too, although (a) he most likely didn’t have the plethora of opportunities, and (b) I somehow misdoubt he needed the M1 to make his point.

I took my dad to see that movie when it was still in theaters. When it was over, we were walking out of the theater discussing the movie. I said, “Everyone in in the movie wanted the old man’s car, but I would have been asking, ‘What’s going to happen to that M1 Garand rifle? Anyone claiming it?'”

My dad said, “Funny you should mention that – I was wondering the same thing about that 1911 .45 pistol he had. Forget the car.”

I bought an M1 the next month, and my dad soon found a good deal on a 1911 pistol. Shows you where our priorities were.
- cylarz | 03/28/2011 @ 12:54
I was the guy downstairs screaming Shut The Fuck Up when you cranked up your brand-new Rolling Stones records, ‘member?

You were wrong then and you’re STILL wrong 30 or 40 years later. I have built several altars to Mick and the Boys over the years and the current one is well- tended. I’m even listening to the Keith Richards station on Pandora, as we speak.

Go find some chorale to amuse yerself… and (wait for it)… Get off my goddamned lawn! 🙂
- bpenni | 03/28/2011 @ 14:51
You were wrong then and you’re STILL wrong 30 or 40 years later. I have built several altars to Mick and the Boys over the years and the current one is well- tended. I’m even listening to the Keith Richards station on Pandora, as we speak.

Go find some chorale to amuse yerself… and (wait for it)… Get off my goddamned lawn! 🙂

Ah, Bucky, Bucky…..

Did it ever occur to you (that’s rhetorical, of course) that you didn’t have the right to cram that shit down everybody’s throat? It’s been truly educational to watch the responses when I put my speakers up against a neighbor’s wall and treated them to a few hours of opera on mornings when I’d been kept awake until 2 a.m. by the scintillating strains of Everybody Listen To How Countercultural I Am at top volume.

They did turn it down, though. Just sayin.
- rob | 03/28/2011 @ 20:54
My own version of that line has always been “I’m sorry, I was under the impression that….” I.e., implying that any gap in misunderstanding may be *my* fault, or that it’s *my* information which may be incorrect.

This has the capacity to get equally annoying, unfortunately, as if it’s overused or done too obsequiously it starts to make you look like a weasel. Nobody likes doormats on an ongoing basis (although occasionally volunteering as one for a very brief stress moment can be a charitable act).

Best tactic is to simply avoid assigning blame entirely, and phrase it as a question rather than a backhanded comment. “That doesn’t match the information I’ve got on hand; can I ask where you heard that?”
- Stephen J. | 03/29/2011 @ 07:47
“According to my notes” is the best way to handle it. In business anyway.

That says, a), you’re taking notes. But also, b), you’re acknowledging that since you’re descended from Adam like everyone else and are flawed like everyone else, your notes are not infallible; you are a human who has encountered a discrepancy and are calling it to the attention of the summit just as soon as you found out about it. Not saying what’s wrong or what’s right, just pointing out a discrepancy here.

“From my recollection” is the best to use if you haven’t been taking notes. None of us are perfect at taking notes. But “according to my notes” is less pointed than “from what I recall”…so this, in itself, is a good argument for taking notes.
- mkfreeberg | 03/29/2011 @ 08:05
[…] identifies a truly irritatingly offensive phrase. […]
- Rhymes With Cars & Girls | 04/09/2011 @ 14:22

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“Not Sure Where You Got Your Info…”Sunday, March 27th, 2011

“Not Sure Where You Got Your Info…”
Sunday, March 27th, 2011