Alarming News: I like Morgan Freeberg. A lot.
American Digest: And I like this from "The Blog That Nobody Reads", because it is -- mostly -- about me. What can I say? I'm on an ego trip today. It won't last.
Anti-Idiotarian Rottweiler: We were following a trackback and thinking "hmmm... this is a bloody excellent post!", and then we realized that it was just part III of, well, three...Damn. I wish I'd written those.
Anti-Idiotarian Rottweiler: ...I just remembered that I found a new blog a short while ago, House of Eratosthenes, that I really like. I like his common sense approach and his curiosity when it comes to why people believe what they believe rather than just what they believe.
Brutally Honest: Morgan Freeberg is brilliant.
Dr. Melissa Clouthier: Morgan Freeberg at House of Eratosthenes (pftthats a mouthful) honors big boned women in skimpy clothing. The picture there is priceless--keep scrolling down.
Exile in Portales: Via Gerard: Morgan Freeberg, a guy with a lot to say. And he speaks The Truth...and it's fascinating stuff. Worth a read, or three. Or six.
Just Muttering: Two nice pieces at House of Eratosthenes, one about a perhaps unintended effect of the Enron mess, and one on the Gore-y environ-movie.
Mein Blogovault: Make "the Blog that No One Reads" one of your daily reads.
The Virginian: I know this post will offend some people, but the author makes some good points.
Poetic Justice: Cletus! Ah gots a laiv one fer yew...
It occurs to me that we really need a word to describe the very broad range of school-age kids who are not only about to be diagnosed, but could be diagnosed, might be diagnosed, are skating around the periphery of possibly one day being diagnosed, with learning disabilities. I think everyone who’s working with this issue in some way implicitly understands, although no one is really describing it in verbiage or prose (I suppose that’s what I’m doing), that the thing we really need to be studying is that periphery. We as a society are spending a whole lot of time and energy treating it as a boolean thing, an on-off thing, thus we remain fixated on two questions: Does this kid have it, and what do we do about it. Thus, the periphery question — what the heck is it, anyway? — receives scant attention.
We treat it as if everyone has come to some kind of agreement about the boundary line. We question it and argue it the way you might question or argue “is it freezing?” Or, to reflect reality more precisely in the analogy, “are the water pipes under your mobile home frozen?” We act as if: It either is, or it isn’t. As I’ve often observed, though, everyone with a heartbeat could be fairly thought of as LD, in one way or another.
This is a big mistake we’re making. To treat this as an objectively measurable thing, is to give currency to the unjustified notion that all the persons involved, or all of the experts anyway, have achieved agreement on the definitions. If not on definitions of cause, then at the very least, on definitions of symptoms. Well, that is a boolean thing if nothing else is; they have or they haven’t. And, the more I learn about this, the more it comes off as a clear and obvious negatori. No, the “science” is not “settled.” They do not yet clearly know what they’re discovering. They don’t know what it is, let alone what causes it.
To study the “does he have it or does he not” and make these sweeping pronouncements about what the child’s potential might be if he does have it, presumes that this unification of the establishment ideas & methods has been reached, and hardened into a clear workable orthodoxy. To study the periphery cases, acknowledges the possibility that perhaps this is not so, and that our scientific efforts are not quite ready for such a thing.
And there are a lot of periphery cases.
As I’ve often noted, I would have been diagnosed easily, perhaps several times, were the “sciences” that are so trendy today similarly hip & stylish some forty years ago. That much is almost certainly true; what is positive is that I would have been included in the profile of these “is he in or is he out” cases. Therefore, if I was studied, my teachers would have been studied as well.
The method to my madness is: I think we need to start building a profile. We have to build a profile of the parents and educators who push for the diagnosis to be made.
The questionable-LD-child’s profile is started with a gradual realization on his part, that the class (or activity) is a dreadful bore that is not his cup of tea, and he begins to think in un-soldier-like ways, to take little ten-second vacations from reality in order to keep the machinery of his mind moving. These eventually stretch into several-minutes-long vacations from reality, during which he is called upon to do something and fails to leap into action the way the “control” child would. You might say, in the video-game of the classroom, he hasn’t yet figured out where the triangle, circle, square & X buttons are quite yet, and therefore can’t navigate through the “fight sequence.” But that is his perspective. From the teacher’s perspective, he has been “caught daydreaming.”
As anybody understands, if they’ve gone through the experience of learning such a “fight sequence” on a new controller, the solution is as simple as simple can be: Take your licking, figure out the fucking buttons, and play again. The first time you’ll have to do it by rote. “Okay, I’m supposed to press this shape then that shape then that one” and that translates to “the one at three o’clock then the one at high noon then the one at nine o’clock.” It’s the wrong thinking process…but that is okay. The next fight sequence, or perhaps the one after, your brain will be all properly wired and you can understand the story while you’re responding appropriately…a case of machine programming man. That’s how it works.
School should be the same way; start off doing the right thing by way of the wrong thinking process, and the next iteration through, shift to the right thinking process. That used to be exactly how it worked. But, somehow, we’ve gotten it into our heads that boys-caught-daydreaming is an exceptional, out of the ordinary occurrence, which must mean we think of “lifeguard mode” as the ordinary and more commonplace situation.
Know what this tells me?
Our boys are sneaky little shits and they are way smarter than their teachers.
Wait, that’s sexist. The girls are smart and sneaky too.
Just watch kids. Watch them waiting to buy movie tickets; watch them waiting for a subway, or riding on it. These kids can’t wait for a goddamn thing, anywhere, anytime. Out come the cell phones. I’ve said it before once, and again, and I’ll say it again, it’s the “not a single lifeguard worth a damn” generation. They haven’t been taught to passively wait for an event demanding instantaneous action, the necessity has not been created and so the skill has not been developed. But the necessity has been created to pretend…so they’re geniuses about that.
Overall, they are. What we’re dealing with around the periphery, are the kids like me. We’re lacking the talent of “sneak and snap.” We get a little too distracted, a little too lazy, a little too enmeshed in this “other” thought process we have going on, and we get this bulls-eye painted on our backs because the teacher starts to recognize: These kids, over here, are with-it and taking part and those kids, over there, can’t be counted-upon for jack shit. Teachers can’t help it, it’s just the way they think. Always has been.
What has changed, is the job of teaching. Back in my day, the teacher’s job was to gavel the classroom to order just like a judge, and keep it in order. Signals would be sent to the (perceptibly) daydreaming kids that their daydreaming was a bit too thick, their performance was too thin, and they needed to up their game. Know how that was done? Embarrassment. Oh, yes, I could write a whole thesis about my personal experiences with this, but it is a bit off topic; what is germane to the immediate discussion is, that the embarrassment did take place, and trust me on this — it didn’t turn into this crazy endless hamster-on-a-wheel thing where parents and teachers spend years and years arguing and arguing about the same ol’ shit, wondering what to do. The kid fixed the problem. Oh, yes he did!
This is how the “lifeguard” skill is developed: Harsh consequences. Why do we feel compelled to watch a coiled snake, for as long as we have to, when the snake isn’t moving? Let’s face it, it’s because snakes bite and the bite of a snake can really hurt you. Without that, there’d be nothing to watch. And this is why it’s the “not a lifeguard worth a damn” generation. All of the negative consequences, packing any weight at all, have been systematically removed. Embarrassment is a no-can-do. It is grounds for punitive action against the teacher, and it is for the most part against district policy.
I understand this from talking to the teachers. I also understand, further, that the teaching job has been shifted around a bit, and this “maintain order” thing isn’t quite so much a central part of it. The job of teacher has been transformed into something much more equivalent to the job of a university professor: Stay up to date on the academic materials and institutional policy, form the syllabus by whatever means, walk through it and grade the papers. The rest of it is up to the kids, and we’ll remove any ones that aren’t up to the job and put them in a “special” class.
So: The kids are expected to behave as if they have paid tuition in the class, when they haven’t. Much as the residents of public housing are expected to maintain the property and the structure upon it, as if they are engaged in a personal, investment-grounded or fiduciary participation in which they aren’t really engaged. In both scenarios, the outcome is the same. Things turn to shit. And, in both scenarios, the establishment has formed a blind spot with regard to the true epicenter of the problem, therefore the problem goes unsolved.
We are not really seeing a “skyrocketing” diagnosis rate of LDs; what we are seeing is more like a “collapsing” of the rate of mainstream participation. It’s crumbling and dissolving into a dysfunctional gooey mess before our very eyes, because we’re expecting kids not to act like kids. Actually, the adults act very much the same way; business meetings, the PowerPoint presentation is a bit too long and boring, and the presenter himself doesn’t know what the hell he’s doing, so up comes the e-mail client.
But, somehow, in the grown-up world, we treat that as a divided responsibility, the way we treat most other things in the grown-up world. The guy IM’-ing during the business meeting might have a shitty work ethic, or be possessed of bad etiquette, or distracted and unaware that he’s much less subtle than he really is — OR — the presenter needs a few tips on how to prepare a better presentation.
With the kids, our approach is far less balanced and we reach for the medication a whole lot quicker. The teacher is somehow infallible, as is the class material. Oh, it would be nice if that was due to a new-found respect for adults and authority; at least, there would be something healthy about that.
But no, this is about the institution being infallible and the individual consistently being at fault, because the individual is smaller than the institution.
That’s not just unhealthy. It is lethal. It is certain to eventually kill off however much of society we have, if we take the passive approach and allow it to continue. For a civilization is nothing, if not a coordination among individuals, and if you don’t respect the individual you cannot expect the civilization to endure.
Teachers need to go back to teaching; the old-fashioned, get-good-at-herding-cats, kid-teaching. If Teacher 1 continues to “find” all these kids in her class with LDs who “need” to be diagnosed, and Teacher 2 isn’t seeing anything similar, and the trend continues year by year, we need to start noticing. We need to profile the teachers whose presentation and drill-sergeant talents are not up to par — so that they can get “the help that they need.” We need to start taking a more balanced approach, the way businesses (sometimes try to) do with their less-than-productive overhead-projector business meetings. The education is communication, communication is a two-way street, both parties involved have responsibilities and therefore both parties labor under a prospect of potentially under-delivering.
That is what we are currently missing. One kid gets that bulls-eye on his back, the fact that some other kid doesn’t have it, is conclusive evidence that “there’s a problem” with the kid. Once we reach that realization we don’t go back & revisit it ever again. That is what we need to start doing, because perhaps it’s a matter of one kid letting us know, sooner than the other one, that the system’s all cocked up and has fallen into a state of disrepair…and of course, if that’s the case, it impacts everyone. Yes, the supposedly-normal, supposedly-successful, supposedly-high-achieving kids as well. They’re being taught to fake it, and when they carry that into “real” life, it won’t be helpful to them or to anyone else.
Leave a Reply
You must be logged in to post a comment.
Why do you maintain such a fascination with the topic of “learning disabilities”, Morgan? It seems so far outside of your usual fare.
Is there something going on with your son that you have not shared with us?
- cylarz | 06/30/2012 @ 22:35I disagree that it’s outside the subject matter of the blog itself, but I don’t want to lead you astray with my arguments. Let’s just say it doesn’t really matter if he’s part of it or not, the problem is real, big & growing. I don’t see it as any different from the global warming thing, really. The hostility against strength & capability, the phony arguments, the play-acting at logical thinking, it’s all the same stuff.
The blog is named after an experiment in which the size of the Earth was calculated by means of observation, sound logical thinking, deductive reasoning, and math. It’s always been about STEM and the subtle resistances against developing it. And, Medicators doing whatever they can to make everyone into a Medicator…the LD thing has become a large sweeping phenomenon in which the next generation is being taught to, quite literally, medicate.
The time has come with the Autism thing to look at what the establishment refuses to inspect or even acknowledge: The periphery. People get these diagnoses on their kids, and they become emotionally-invested cheerleaders; you say something they don’t like, and suddenly you’re embroiled in this conversation about hardcore cases which aren’t the subject of disagreement anyway. The damage to human potential is done along this periphery, this “someday we might have the technology to figure out what he’s got, while we’re waiting put him on these meds.”
- mkfreeberg | 07/01/2012 @ 07:28The time has come with the Autism thing to look at what the establishment refuses to inspect or even acknowledge: The periphery. People get these diagnoses on their kids, and they become emotionally-invested cheerleaders; you say something they don’t like, and suddenly you’re embroiled in this conversation about hardcore cases which aren’t the subject of disagreement anyway.
I don’t agree with those statements. Anecdotal evidence leads me to believe the opposite, actually.
My s/o is a teacher and has been a good part of her adult life. A significant portion of that time has been spent dealing with children with learning disabilities, especially autism. Her experience has been that some of the kids under her care seem kind of slow and are showing other signs of being on the “autistic spectrum” (including Asperger’s, which is a very mild form of autism that also deprives the patient of the ability to pick up on normal cues in a social setting.) What she has found is that when these kids are diagnosed and sent to special programs designed to help them, they tend to show massive improvement.
So much so, in fact, that the parents often suggest that their vastly-improved child is ready to return to a normal classroom setting with the other kids; whereupon the trouble starts all over again, and the cycle repeats itself.
My observation is that these parents – far from “becoming emotionally-invested cheerleaders” – are actually in denial about the breadth and severity of their child’s learning disabilities. They desperately want to believe that their kid is normal and capable of succeeding in a normal academic environment alongside other normal kids. They don’t like the idea that their child requires special education, much less medication.
And I’m not talking about “hardcore cases which aren’t the subject of disagreement anyway,” I’m talking precisely about the marginal ones. If a child is severely autistic, actually, it becomes harder for another stakeholder to dispute the diagnosis, and harder for the parents to deny it’s a problem for their child.
My original question was aimed at trying to understand why you keep bringing this up, this business about over-diagnosing learning disabilities in children (and then medicating them) or why you keep trying to relate it to your broader Architects vs Medicators theme.
I understand quite clearly when you’re speaking in the abstract, when you’re rendering commentary on some of the larger problems in our society – people who actually built things and get stuff done, vs those who sit around and complain and issue diktats. Farmers, vs EPA busybodies. Innovators at software companies vs parasites in Congress. Bill Gates vs Nancy Pelosi. I understand all of that perfectly. I wish you’d keep the discussion there…as it seems to be more in-keeping with what I thought this blog was supposed to be about. (It IS your blog and I guess you can take the conversations anyplace you like, but I wouldn’t expect to find blueberry pie recipes here or information on breast cancer support groups.)
Where you consistently lose me, is where you presume that your expertise (or lack of it) in the area of learning disabilities, is superior to that of educators, psychologists, psychiatrists, researchers, or anyone else whose business it is to spot, diagnose, or treat said disabilities, especially autism.
I doubt very much that you’d appreciate any of these people telling you how to write a script, configure a network, or troubleshoot problems on a server. You’re certainly free to say whatever you like about learning disabilities in children; I simply am questioning your credibility…and more recently, your motives for doing so. This is why I asked if you had personally dealt with this problem in your own child or children; granted it’s probably none of my business.
For the record I do understand what you’re getting at when you talk about diagnosing normal little-boy behavior as ADD, but A) I have personally seen what a handful ADD boys can be and B) that indeed is treatable with meds; autism, not so much. But it is simply a fact that some disorders disproportionately affect one gender more than another; breast cancer, for instance, does strike men now and then but is primarily a female problem…as is the case with eating disorders such as bulimia.
- cylarz | 07/02/2012 @ 01:20You must know that, thanks to this dubious “spectrum” science ALL this stuff is being categorized as Autism.
And I would have to point out that just because the performance improves with special education, doesn’t mean necessarily that this is a good arrangement for the child’s future education/career path. Simply put, sooner or later the kid has to learn to be in a class. As I said, above, the job of teaching has changed. Sitting in a class with a room for of other kids, just watching and absorbing the lesson, is a skill. We now have an educational establishment that refuses to recognize this as a learned skill; kids are born with it or they’re not, and if they don’t have it they’re “disabled.” The labels like ADD/Aspergers/etc. are just hooks upon which to hang this thought.
And if the kid is a “handful” that by itself does not constitute a disability. Even if you take him out of the class and give him specialized attention — and his performance improves. Everybody’s performance improves with specialized attention.
I’m genuinely curious: If it is fair to say the parents “desperately want to believe that their kid is normal,” would it not be equally fair to say that the teachers also “desperately want to believe the kid will be put in another class” to make their jobs easier? You do have to admit, previously, keeping the kids in line used to be part of the teaching job, and it no longer is (I pointed this out, too). Simultaneous with that change, we have this skyrocketing frequency of spectrum diagnoses…I see a connection between those two things. The attitude that the parents and other interested parties need to just pipe down and leave things to the professionals, frankly, is not helpful. It smacks of the global warming crusade, maybe not quite as crooked, but the principles are all the same.
And there is one point you’re overlooking here, which is probably more important than all the others: Once the kids grow up and hit the job market, with zero experience participating in any kind of group effort on equal footing with their peers, receiving zero of this”special instruction” and just being expected to succeed…there will come about a situation in which the parents are still involved. Your lady, in her teaching capacity, will be entirely out of it. So will these doctors and other professionals…it’s just the kid, the colleagues, the boss, family, and that’s it. And the rest of society, of course. So, no, I don’t think it hurts to look down the road at this thing while we can still do something about it.
- mkfreeberg | 07/02/2012 @ 04:43Coincidence of coincidences, Dr. Joy Bliss at Maggie’s Farm turned her attention to some of this stuff this weekend.
Now, I’ve been saying all along that Architects don’t give a rip how many other Architects there are, but Medicators want everyone to be a Medicator. That’s been a central plank in the ongoing litany…so you’re losing me on this notion that this “Autism Revolution,” maybe we should call it, is somehow off-topic. Is that not, in fact, a better example of it than most? Just review the rule that is being enforced, at a high, abstract level: You should participate in the group exercise, don’t ripple the pond, don’t rock the boat, if you do then we’re going to remove you to someplace where you can’t disrupt…and medicate you.
It’s exactly the sort of “nail that sticks out is the one that’s gonna get hammered” thing that defines the whole paradigm. The teachers just want a manageable class. But what they are, in fact, doing is identifying creativity, during a time in which creativity has become a scarce resource in our society, and medicating it away. In your girlfriend’s position, I’m sure it seems to make a lot of sense. In the parents’ position it looks like something else. Frankly, you shouldn’t be in such a hurry to dismiss the parents’ concerns. She’s the hen, they’re the pig…involved in vs. committed to the ham & egg breakfast.
- mkfreeberg | 07/02/2012 @ 05:05You must know that, thanks to this dubious “spectrum” science ALL this stuff is being categorized as Autism.
“Spectrum” means that some kids have the condition worse than others. That’s all. That’s undeniable.
And I would have to point out that just because the performance improves with special education, doesn’t mean necessarily that this is a good arrangement for the child’s future education/career path. Simply put, sooner or later the kid has to learn to be in a class.
Maybe, but we can’t even think about sending him to college when right now, he can’t even function well in a third grade math class.
As I said, above, the job of teaching has changed. Sitting in a class with a room for of other kids, just watching and absorbing the lesson, is a skill. We now have an educational establishment that refuses to recognize this as a learned skill; kids are born with it or they’re not, and if they don’t have it they’re “disabled.” The labels like ADD/Aspergers/etc. are just hooks upon which to hang this thought.
What a load of…
Look Morgan, I don’t teach. (Neither do you, far as I know.) But I do come from a family of educators – not just my “lady,” but also both parents and an uncle. I’ve also been through some of these programs as a kid, having had a few issues of my own back in the day. Things have probably changed since the 1980s, but it is hard for me to imagine that teachers are blind to conformity in class being a learned skill. What’s your evidence for this claim? In fact, isn’t that the entire point of kindergarten – to teach kids to sit still and be quiet for an hour or so at a time – while doing stuff like making garlands out of construction paper and art paste? That’s the entire point of early childhood education – to prepare a student for learning that will take place further up the ladder. Who in the hell thinks that this skill is inborn?
And you’re not seriously suggesting that autism is made-up, are you?
And if the kid is a “handful” that by itself does not constitute a disability. Even if you take him out of the class and give him specialized attention — and his performance improves. Everybody’s performance improves with specialized attention.
Due to resource constraints, specialized attention is only given to those truly in need. There are plenty of kids who don’t suffer from learning disabilities and who simply don’t require it.
I wish you could come down to Rocklin one afternoon – hell, it’s not that far of a drive for you – and come with me to visit a buddy of mine. I’d love for you to hear what HE (not she, contrary to your prior assertions) has to say about what ADD meds have done for his son. What it’s done not just for his academic performance but also his interpersonal skills e.g. ability to get along with others. Before going on the meds the kid was kicked out of three schools for being unable to get along and being too disruptive in class. Now, he’s getting A’s. This was after receiving a diagnosis and medication from a board-certified medical professional. Now, what would you conclude?
I’m genuinely curious: If it is fair to say the parents “desperately want to believe that their kid is normal,” would it not be equally fair to say that the teachers also “desperately want to believe the kid will be put in another class” to make their jobs easier?
What I said was, that the parents want to take their kid out of the specialized class and put him back in the normal one because they want to believe their child is normal. I’m not particularly interested in what the teachers “want.” As a parent I’d want their opinion, sure, but the decision is mine, or at least it ought to be.
You do have to admit, previously, keeping the kids in line used to be part of the teaching job, and it no longer is (I pointed this out, too).
Last time I checked, this is still the case. I live with a teacher, remember? She comes home every night and tells me what she had to do that day.
Simultaneous with that change, we have this skyrocketing frequency of spectrum diagnoses…I see a connection between those two things. The attitude that the parents and other interested parties need to just pipe down and leave things to the professionals, frankly, is not helpful.
And when was that, exactly? Can you pinpoint a year?
Last time I checked, it’s the parents who seek these professionals out. Didn’t one of your earlier screeds on this subject revolve around “female parents” custom-ordering diagnoses for their male children? It’s like you can’t decide if it’s raw sexism, a conspiracy by the pharma companies, or a bout of laziness on the part of school systems. Pick your villain already.
It smacks of the global warming crusade, maybe not quite as crooked, but the principles are all the same.
Oh, so now we’re harkening back to our conversation with the Zachariel? Yah, you’d have a point, IF the two had anything at all to do with one another….which they don’t.
And there is one point you’re overlooking here, which is probably more important than all the others: Once the kids grow up and hit the job market, with zero experience participating in any kind of group effort on equal footing with their peers, receiving zero of this”special instruction” and just being expected to succeed…there will come about a situation in which the parents are still involved.
Many of these kids still require medication as adults, whereupon they’ll function as normal professionals. Plenty of adults struggle with ADD and other disorders which were first diagnosed when they were kids. Don’t ask me how I know about this.
The ones who can’t function properly in the professional world will be greeters at Wal Mart instead. That’s just how it is. No one pretends that autism kids – despite many of them being extremely intelligent – are going to become surgeons, not even at the rate of the normal population.
Your lady, in her teaching capacity, will be entirely out of it. So will these doctors and other professionals…it’s just the kid, the colleagues, the boss, family, and that’s it. And the rest of society, of course. So, no, I don’t think it hurts to look down the road at this thing while we can still do something about it.
And that would be what, exactly? What can “we” do about it? (For that matter, who is ‘we’? Us as parents? Us as citizens who vote government officials into power? Who?)
Your argument on this, as always…is long on broad assertions and short on specifics…and even shorter on credibility.
Coincidence of coincidences, Dr. Joy Bliss at Maggie’s Farm turned her attention to some of this stuff this weekend.
Now, I’ve been saying all along that Architects don’t give a rip how many other Architects there are, but Medicators want everyone to be a Medicator. That’s been a central plank in the ongoing litany…so you’re losing me on this notion that this “Autism Revolution,” maybe we should call it, is somehow off-topic. Is that not, in fact, a better example of it than most? Just review the rule that is being enforced, at a high, abstract level: You should participate in the group exercise, don’t ripple the pond, don’t rock the boat, if you do then we’re going to remove you to someplace where you can’t disrupt…and medicate you.
It’s exactly the sort of “nail that sticks out is the one that’s gonna get hammered” thing that defines the whole paradigm. The teachers just want a manageable class. But what they are, in fact, doing is identifying creativity, during a time in which creativity has become a scarce resource in our society, and medicating it away. In your girlfriend’s position, I’m sure it seems to make a lot of sense. In the parents’ position it looks like something else. Frankly, you shouldn’t be in such a hurry to dismiss the parents’ concerns. She’s the hen, they’re the pig…involved in vs. committed to the ham & egg breakfast.
- cylarz | 07/02/2012 @ 12:49Just review the rule that is being enforced, at a high, abstract level: You should participate in the group exercise, don’t ripple the pond, don’t rock the boat, if you do then we’re going to remove you to someplace where you can’t disrupt…and medicate you.
Depends on what you mean by “disrupt.” If you’re talking about some scientist being drummed out of his profession because he dares question the orthodoxy on evolution or AGW, fine. Heck man, I’ve seen “Expelled.” Ben Stein summed it up nicely.
But when you’re talking about a third grader who won’t quiet down and hasn’t responded to the normal methods of bringing him under control (the principal’s office, conferences with the parents, etc), then there is a real problem. And I don’t know where you get off assuming that the drugs are the method of first rather than of last resort. They’re expensive, you know.
It’s exactly the sort of “nail that sticks out is the one that’s gonna get hammered” thing that defines the whole paradigm. The teachers just want a manageable class.
Wait a minute. I thought it was “…keeping the kids in line used to be part of the teaching job, and it no longer is (I pointed this out, too).” Which is it, Morgan?
But what they are, in fact, doing is identifying creativity, during a time in which creativity has become a scarce resource in our society, and medicating it away.
So now we’re medicating kids who are good at art class or thinking outside the box at math? Since when? Huh?
In your girlfriend’s position, I’m sure it seems to make a lot of sense. In the parents’ position it looks like something else.
You’ve spent numerous posts arguing that the parents are the ones instigating all of this. Which is it? Stop talking out of both sides of your mouth.
Frankly, you shouldn’t be in such a hurry to dismiss the parents’ concerns. She’s the hen, they’re the pig…involved in vs. committed to the ham & egg breakfast.
What……?
- cylarz | 07/02/2012 @ 12:54Oh, and I visited your link to Maggie’s farm. Interesting:
“My approach is to try to understand a person first but, if they want to try a pill, fine.”
I think Dr Bliss is talking about adult patients, not children like you and I were discussing…but even so, substitute “parents” for “you” and we’ve got an opinion that tends to undermine (rather that reinforce) the point you were trying to make.
- cylarz | 07/02/2012 @ 12:59“Spectrum” means that some kids have the condition worse than others. That’s all. That’s undeniable.
No dude, read up. That is not what the “Autistic spectrum” is, not even close. It’s got nothing to do with marginal versus hardcore situations, nothing at all. The Autistic spectrum is like a woolly sweater to wear while running through the cockleburr bushes…so you pick up classic PDD-NOS, you pick up Aspergers when they can’t even define what that is exactly, the entire family of AD(H)D goes into the same stewpot. It’s a gimmick done mostly for funds-qualifying malarkey, but it affects the science as well.
Now, you’ve said up above you’re “talking precisely about the marginal” cases…okay…and then you say the parents “desperately want to believe that their kid is normal and capable of succeeding in a normal academic environment” when you think this is not the case, and you’re defending an orthodox opinion that this is not the case. So I’m not sure what I’m being put on the spot to prove here, where we disagree; it has become popular to identify these marginal cases, and treat them as “disabled,” get them out of the mainstream, since they’ll “never” be able to succeed in it. We’ll just hope-against-hope there’s no loss of human potential there — if the parents disagree, you clearly don’t think they know what they’re talking about.
Who’s making the sweeping generalization here then? Seems to me it’s you.
…isn’t that the entire point of kindergarten – to teach kids to sit still and be quiet for an hour or so at a time…?
Yup. But sometimes the lesson doesn’t take. Perhaps it never was a perfect exercise, and it was up to the teachers in later classes to reign in the bad behavior. Or perhaps Kindergarten has become much less effective, because when you and I went the teachers were allowed to tell us “no” and mean it…and now they don’t have the same disciplinary tools. Or, maybe everything is exactly the same, and we have all these diagnoses all of a sudden because of — radiation? A comet? Global warming?
What……?
Oh, you know better than this. I don’t find it convincing when people claim to find me difficult to understand; that does nothing to persuade me at all.
It’s the chicken versus pig and the ham-and-egg breakfast. It’s a very old metaphor. Now, you start asking these teachers some critical, skeptical questions about this…and I’m picking up the vibe that you haven’t been doing this much…they will, eventually, tell you that schools don’t diagnose. They aren’t allowed to. So, then, what they’re doing is saying “Hey, this kid acts differently, he acts weird, there must be something wrong with his brain” — it’s hardened into a “scientific diagnosis” the first time someone finds a doc willing to sign off on the paperwork…I say there’s a potential for abuse there, and wasted human potential as the system essentially gives up on the child, says “he’ll never be able to do normal work, this doc says so”…and you’re going to lower the beatdown on me for pointing out the obvious, just because your girlfriend’s a teacher? Seriously?
Maybe, just maybe, some of those parents might know what they’re talking about. It’s a thought.
- mkfreeberg | 07/02/2012 @ 13:52No dude, read up. That is not what the “Autistic spectrum” is, not even close. It’s got nothing to do with marginal versus hardcore situations, nothing at all.
No…”dude”…I did read up. You haven’t. That’s EXACTLY what Autism spectrum means:
http://www.myautism.org/what-is-autism
* Autistic Disorder (also called “classic” autism): This is what most people think of when hearing the word “autism.” People with autistic disorder usually have significant language delays, social and communication challenges, and unusual behaviors and interests. Many people with autistic disorder also have intellectual disability.
* Asperger Syndrome: People with Asperger syndrome usually have some milder symptoms of autistic disorder. They might have social challenges and unusual behaviors and interests. However, they typically do not have problems with language or intellectual disability.
* Pervasive Developmental Disorder-Not Otherwise Specified (PDD-NOS; also called “atypical autism”): People who meet some—but not all—of the criteria for autistic disorder or Asperger syndrome may be diagnosed with PDD-NOS. They will usually have fewer and milder symptoms than those with autistic disorders, with symptoms possibly including social and communication challenges.
Now, you’ve said up above you’re “talking precisely about the marginal” cases…okay…and then you say the parents “desperately want to believe that their kid is normal and capable of succeeding in a normal academic environment” when you think this is not the case, and you’re defending an orthodox opinion that this is not the case. So I’m not sure what I’m being put on the spot to prove here, where we disagree;
You’ve been alleging from the get-go that there’s no such thing. You’re being put on the spot to “prove” that all the mental health professionals who say otherwise…are wrong. You alternately suggest a shadowy conspiracy among various actors in order to…what? Sell drugs, get problem kids out of class, put misbehaving boys in a pigeonhole category…?
it has become popular to identify these marginal cases, and treat them as “disabled,” get them out of the mainstream, since they’ll “never” be able to succeed in it. We’ll just hope-against-hope there’s no loss of human potential there — if the parents disagree, you clearly don’t think they know what they’re talking about.
Two points you don’t see to grasp:
1) Disruptive children in class aren’t just a problem for the inattentive, misbehaving child himself. He also disrupts the learning of other children (normal ones) by constantly drawing the teacher’s attention to himself. He also distracts the other kids. By removing him from the environment, some sense of normalcy is attained. It’s better for all concerned.
2) Who says they’ll “never” be able to succeed? There’s mild autism, and there’s severe autism. There’s ADHD. There’s all kinds of disorders. Some are treatable with medication, successfully enough that the child will grow into a productive adult. I insist on this because I’m living proof of it. Others are able to return to a sub-normal state. Others are so far-gone that they’ll only be able to perform the most menial of tasks.
Who’s making the sweeping generalization here then? Seems to me it’s you.
Really? You’re the one who’s alleging that the whole thing is a cockamamie bunch of bull, that it’s all a big plot by “Medicators” to pharmacologically subdue little boys for doing normal little boy things. That isn’t a generalization?
Meanwhile, real kids are being helped by these drugs. I’m curious as to what else you’re so dismissive of – depression? Phobias? Psychosis? Are those made-up, too?
Yup. But sometimes the lesson doesn’t take. Perhaps it never was a perfect exercise, and it was up to the teachers in later classes to reign in the bad behavior.
Thank you for contradicting yourself…by admitting there’s nothing “inborn” about learning to conform to an environment with rules and restrictions. Children who don’t learn to do that, indeed, will never learn to function. We have a place for adults who never learned those lessons. It’s called “jail.”
Or perhaps Kindergarten has become much less effective, because when you and I went the teachers were allowed to tell us “no” and mean it…and now they don’t have the same disciplinary tools. Or, maybe everything is exactly the same, and we have all these diagnoses all of a sudden because of — radiation? A comet? Global warming?
It so happens that my teacher-girlfriend’s area of expertise IS kindergarten and related early-childhood education. I hear quite a bit about what is and is not done in schools in those grades. You could fairly dismiss her if she were a 10th-grade math teacher, but she isn’t. She deals with the very children you’re arguing with me about…every day.
Oh, you know better than this. I don’t find it convincing when people claim to find me difficult to understand; that does nothing to persuade me at all.
I said “what” because I have no idea what in the hell you’re talking about, not because I’m trying to ‘persuade’ you.
It’s the chicken versus pig and the ham-and-egg breakfast. It’s a very old metaphor. Now, you start asking these teachers some critical, skeptical questions about this…and I’m picking up the vibe that you haven’t been doing this much…they will, eventually, tell you that schools don’t diagnose. They aren’t allowed to.
Schools *don’t* diagnose. Who said they do? Mental health professionals do. The ones who are brought in to examine these cases after schools, parents, or some combination of both report the classic symptoms of ADD or autism are observed…and are told that conventional behavior-modification isn’t helping. You can only punish a child so severely, even at home, and when he still doesn’t respond, you need to consider other options.
So, then, what they’re doing is saying “Hey, this kid acts differently, he acts weird, there must be something wrong with his brain”
A kid that’s screaming and running around and acting up in class and can’t get along and is getting failing grades and can’t read a book or pay attention in class? Yeah, they’re saying those kids have something wrong in the head.
it’s hardened into a “scientific diagnosis” the first time someone finds a doc willing to sign off on the paperwork…I say there’s a potential for abuse there,
Maybe, but that’s why we have governing bodies that oversee physicians and who hold them to account in cases of “abuse.” There are also legal remedies.
and wasted human potential as the system essentially gives up on the child, says “he’ll never be able to do normal work, this doc says so”
Have you paid attention to a word I’ve said? Some cases are treatable. Some are marginally treatable. Some are not.
…and you’re going to lower the beatdown on me for pointing out the obvious, just because your girlfriend’s a teacher? Seriously?
Let me turn that around. You want me to discard the opinion of someone who works with these kids every damn day, whose observations are backed by three relatives who work in the school system, who in turn are backed by years of education, experience, and training…
…you want me to cast that aside and instead rely on the word of a software engineer, someone who does not even hold a teaching credential, much less an MD in behavioral studies? You’re serious?
This is what I was talking about when I complained of missing credibility on your part. Everything you know about this, you either gleaned from casual observation or read somewhere online. You have no training or firsthand experience whatsoever to be rendering judgment on how the diagnostic process works or how treatment is administered. None to my knowledge.
I don’t claim to be the expert, mind you….I simply defer to the judgment of people who are.
Maybe, just maybe, some of those parents might know what they’re talking about. It’s a thought.
You mean the ones whom you accuse of getting docs to “sign off” on an ADD or autism diagnosis so they can drug their own kids into submission? Those parents?
Morgan, to say I’m disappointed that you’ve chosen this hill to die on…..that’s an understatement.
- cylarz | 07/02/2012 @ 18:47I don’t see anything in your link supporting that the spectrum is intended as a spectrum of mild-to-severe; it indicates the opposite, it indicates my usage is the correct one.
So does this, along with many others:
The autism spectrum has recently broadened to capture a heterogeneous group of kids who have much milder social and behavioral problems, normal speech, and normal (or even high) IQ. So, the explosion of autism doesn’t mean that kids have suddenly gotten more autistic — rather the diagnostic label is being applied more loosely and inclusively.
Yeah, it’s HuffPo, but it’s just the first one I grabbed — not at odds with much of the informed commentary out there. The spectrum is a device that has the effect I have described, to capture more cases into the net. And, I would argue, that was the intent.
And now, I’m embroiled with you in a debate about whether Autism “exists” — just like I said. This has become a sacred cow that people won’t allow to have contested in any way. Even if they don’t have a background in the appropriate field of research, they still want their word to be the be-all-end-all. This kid acts weird — therefore — he must be removed, and we should give up on developing the social skills which he’s been slower to develop, now & forevermore…that is the practice. That’s the effect. You’re actually going to tell me there’s no loss of human potential there. How can such a thing be possible?
The kids are being profiled according to their personality types, and if they don’t make the cut, they are sidelined. You and many others are ready to lecture the parents they need to just “accept it,” pipe down, shut up, let the experts work their magic. If the parents utter a peep of resistance they’re being stubborn.
Tests are done on the child, they come back negative, the doctor observes the child’s behavior and writes down a positive diagnosis anyway. The schools, which don’t diagnose, argue and argue about it until they’re blue in the face as if they’ve seen something proven…and, thanks to the spectrum, new “disabilities” can be added in and it can all be called Autism. That is what the spectrum does. That’s what it’s for. It’s not mild-to-spicy, like taco seasoning. It’s there to cast out a big net, to catch more behaviors, and get more kids “the help that they need” — and create more of this pharmaceutical activity.
- mkfreeberg | 07/02/2012 @ 23:16Wow. Still whipping that dead horse, eh Morgan? You’re starting to remind me of the Zachariel – just keep repeating the same damn thing over and over, with nary an acknowledgement of what your opposition has gone to the trouble of pointing out.
I don’t see anything in your link supporting that the spectrum is intended as a spectrum of mild-to-severe; it indicates the opposite, it indicates my usage is the correct one.
It indicates quite clearly that there are at least three different types of autism, ranging in severity. Your claim was that the spectrum doesn’t exist, remember? I love how you keep moving the goalposts…you’re like those damn liberal trolls over at Right Wing News.
And now, I’m embroiled with you in a debate about whether Autism “exists” — just like I said. This has become a sacred cow that people won’t allow to have contested in any way.
You continue to deny there’s any such thing. Meanwhile, my 40-something cousin is autistic and can’t do anything more than assemble cardboard boxes. If that puts me in the position of defending a “sacred cow” then so be it.
Even if they don’t have a background in the appropriate field of research, they still want their word to be the be-all-end-all.
You mean like you’ve been asking me to do with *your* word, since the beginning of this conversation? I find it interesting that you refuse to engage me on the issue of your qualifications to speak on this issue, also ignoring the opinion of plenty of other people who do know what they’re talking about.
This kid acts weird — therefore — he must be removed, and we should give up on developing the social skills which he’s been slower to develop, now & forevermore…that is the practice.
What part of “some cases are treatable” do you interpret as “giving up?”
That’s the effect. You’re actually going to tell me there’s no loss of human potential there. How can such a thing be possible?
Yawn.
The kids are being profiled according to their personality types, and if they don’t make the cut, they are sidelined.
They’re not being “sidelined,” they’re being treated with a combination of drug therapy, counseling, and specialized instruction. What part of that eludes your grasp? Why do you insist on misrepresenting my position? Nobody is calling for ADHD or autistic children to be thrown in a padded room and left there to rot.
You and many others are ready to lecture the parents they need to just “accept it,” pipe down, shut up, let the experts work their magic. If the parents utter a peep of resistance they’re being stubborn.
Lecture the parents? *(#%@&@!!!…..You’re the one who’s accusing them, once again, of shopping around for tailor-made diagnoses, remember? I was the one who said that the parents ought to be the deciders, not the teachers. We just keep going around and around, don’t we?
Good grief, man.
Tests are done on the child, they come back negative, the doctor observes the child’s behavior and writes
down a positive diagnosis anyway.
How? When? Who? Where?
The schools, which don’t diagnose, argue and argue about it until they’re blue in the face as if they’ve seen something proven…and, thanks to the spectrum, new “disabilities” can be added in and it can all be called Autism.
Yeah, it couldn’t possibly be because enormous resources have been devoted to the study of autism – its causes, its symptoms, its effects, its treatments -over the last 20 years. You think it’s a coincidence – or some evil agenda, I’m sure – that more is known about it today than was in say, 1980. We’ve spent a decade now arguing with ourselves on whether, say, vaccines have anything to do with it.
That is what the spectrum does. That’s what it’s for. It’s not mild-to-spicy, like taco seasoning. It’s there to cast out a big net, to catch more behaviors, and get more kids “the help that they need” — and create more of this pharmaceutical activity.
So does this mean you’ve finally settled on who the bogeyman is, then? Big Pharma? You’re all done lobbing nefarious allegations at teachers, parents, psychologists, counselors, and medical doctors? Glad we’ve got that straightened out.
- cylarz | 07/02/2012 @ 23:35I bring up your very own TIK #179:
179. Children seem to be “diagnosed” with lots of things lately. It has become customary for at least one of their parents to be somehow “enthusiastic” about said diagnosis, sometimes even confessing to having requested or demanded the diagnosis. Said parent is invariably female. Said child is invariably male. The lopsided gender trend is curious, and so is the spectacle of parents ordering diagnoses for their children, like pizzas or textbooks.
As I said. It’s you who has been suggesting that the parents (especially mothers) are the lazy ones who bring in the doctors, in order to render the diagnosis.
You’re all over the place – in one post it’s this, in the next it’s the doctors, in the next it’s the teachers. At least make up your damn mind – are you going to stand by this TIK statement, or have you now switched to accusations of increased autism/ADHD/whatever diagnoses in order to “create more pharmaceutical activity?”
- cylarz | 07/02/2012 @ 23:48It indicates quite clearly that there are at least three different types of autism, ranging in severity. Your claim was that the spectrum doesn’t exist, remember?
No Cylarz, I don’t remember saying that.
I don’t remember suggesting that Autism didn’t exist, either.
You’re all over the place –
Because you’re not paying attention to what I’m really pointing out.
- mkfreeberg | 07/03/2012 @ 00:12OK Morgan, now you’re getting to the point of insulting my intelligence…
No Cylarz, I don’t remember saying that.
Except you did:
“You must know that, thanks to this dubious “spectrum” science ALL this stuff is being categorized as Autism.
I don’t remember suggesting that Autism didn’t exist, either.
You’re suggesting that it’s been over-diagnosed and that it’s become more and more broadly defined. According to you, the disorder has been watered-down to the point where it’s meaningless.
Because you’re not paying attention to what I’m really pointing out.
No, I said you’re all over the place…..because you’re all over the place. Every time I nail you, you move the goal posts. Every time I point out that something you’ve said is A) asinine and B) not within your realm of expertise, you try to backtrack and claim you didn’t say it, or that it isn’t what you mean. Meanwhile, you deploy one strawman after another, twisting my argument beyond all recognition. Case in point – I talk about how autism varies in severity and there’s a varying degree of success in treating it from one case to another …you call that “sidelining” a child or “giving up” on him or her.
You also….as I’ve pointed out about three times now…can’t seem to decide who the bad guys are. Is it parents? Teachers? Doctors? Schools? Big Pharma? You’ve fingered them all and every time I point out that what you’re saying is utter nonsense, you switch to a different target.
You’ve got some nerve accusing ME of not paying attention. My only problem is that I’m having trouble keeping up with your constantly-shifting arguments.
And you STILL refuse to engage me on “what in the fuck qualifies you to comment on this.” Big surprise.
- cylarz | 07/03/2012 @ 02:58I’m done with this thread. You want to believe the whole realm of learning disabilities is a big racket…you go right ahead. Thank whatever deity you pray to…that you’ve never had to deal with this shit firsthand while you were school, trying to hold down a job, or attempting to deal with your peers in a social setting, or get along with your own family.
Thank that deity that you’ve never had to deal with a child – your own or someone else’s – who is chock full of behavioral problems and whose parents refuse to medicate them because of raw denial or some archaic belief that medication is a tool that the government uses to control us. Keep telling yourself that Merck and Pfizer are in cahoots with the school districts and Dr DiagnosesTooMuch.
Keep telling yourself that an IT guy knows more about all this than board-certified researchers and medical professionals with enough degrees to wallpaper a bedroom. More than educators who’ve spent 25 years or an entire career dealing with behavioral issues in school. More than a mother or father who’s raised four children.
More than a guy who’s spent almost forty years beating back the symptoms of learning disabilities.
I’ve made one mistake here. and that’s that I allowed it to get personal. Maybe it’s a tad irritating, yes, to listen to someone (someone whose opinions you normally respect) tell you that the disorders you’ve been battling all your life…are in your head and that it’s just a matter of not having gotten enough spankings as a child or been told “no” enough times by your teachers.
You believe whatever the hell you like, Morgan. Those of us who live in the real world will deal with these problems based on the advice of actual, qualified experts.
- cylarz | 07/03/2012 @ 03:08So:
You don’t see the difference between “Autism is over-diagnosed thanks to this spectrum” and “Autism doesn’t really exist”?
Those two sentiments are synonymous to you? Really?
Because if I’m reading what you say seriously…you think I’m “moving the goalposts” and “backtracking” from what I said earlier, solely because I’m insisting on one but not the other.
Meanwhile — they’re not synonymous. It’s just a fact.
You can’t see the difference? Really?
Maybe you would do well to form your argument into a classic syllogism, rather than engaging in this discredited Donald Trump malarkey where you just engage in a fancy monologue about how the other person has zero credibility, and just call her good. You’ve neglected the syllogism, and as a consequence, the argument you’re bringing is weak, silly and sloppy.
1. Without special ed, the kid doesn’t do well.
2. With it, he “does better.” In fact, we can repeat several cycles where the kid is deprived of the special instruction, goes back to his crappy performance, the special instruction is restored, and he again “does better.”
:
:
(huge gap here)
:
:
3. Therefore…with NO definable “disabilities” in place, across the years…in fact, clinical testing being done on the kid and it all comes back negative…we shatter Occam’s Razor, ignore the simpler, more durable, more sensible conclusion that the “Kindergarten” training simply didn’t take because the kid’s personality wasn’t right for it — and LEAP to the conclusion that he has a handicap that cannot yet be measured, but the parents just “need to get used to it,” and if they resist this, they need to be browbeaten by the system until they come to terms with it. And then the kid can almost have a normal life.
It must be true. Makes your girlfriend’s job easier.
Think you’ve forgotten who you’re talking to. When I comment on something outside my “expertise” and people “nail” me on it, like they “nail” me on the global warming…I don’t shrink back & backtrack and say “oh, no, I never said that.” Your rejoinder there is boilerplate rehearsed for someone else, or at least, that’s how it comes off. My stock answer is & always has been, more something like “Fuck you, I know what I saw, I don’t need a degree to know what it was, and it means something unless you can convince me otherwise.” So to pretend I didn’t say something — that isn’t something I’d do. Besides of which, it’s a comment thread. Written. Text. Who’s being silly?
Eratosthenes wasn’t a geologist or an astronomer. He was a library administrator. The size of the Earth was none of his damn business…but he was right.
- mkfreeberg | 07/03/2012 @ 06:00You complain that kids today “just can’t seem to sit and passively wait for anything.” Well THANK GOD. Because that’s what the school system was designed to produce: passive workers and drones. Back in your day they were still succeeding at that.
- rhjunior | 07/03/2012 @ 06:25Yup, I want them to wait as long as it takes.
And then when it happens, I want them to spring into action as if rehearsed…be alert, in other words. I want them to do all of it, just like I had to do. I’m a selfish old coot, that way.
You know who goes off on that particular tangent far more eloquently than I ever could, is Mr. Adams. I believe in this theory about a zillion percent…the adults aren’t being any more creative than the kids, lately.
- mkfreeberg | 07/03/2012 @ 07:29